Worst trip yet

The different ways to consume/use Salvia divinorum and other entheogens, personal rituals, and trip reports.

Worst trip yet

Postby Ulmdorgr » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:36 am

I like to ramble, I guess, so I apologize. Long story short: never want to do it again. Too intense. I will not be talking about the subjective experience here (see last paragraph for why).

So tonight I tried to blaspheme against the goddess again. Of course, as I should have predicted, she smited me. This has been a common occurrence as of late (last 7 months or so).

Do not read on unless you have a bunch of free time. Long story short: don't do this shit unless you're ready to test the boundaries. I'm fucking serious. Stop now unless you feel like you can help to unravel the mystery of this shit. Most of you probably do not indulge in salvinorin A, as this is primarily a cultivation forum. I know a few of you have tried it, and you may read on to see what the hell is going on.

Shit got way too real, and... I am confused as to how to proceed. I'm not saying I haven't been overwhelmed by salvinorin A in the past. I have. Many times. I've convinced myself that it's all been okay. As a "practicing" (that is, continually saying the same line over and over) nihilist, I keep telling myself that I am the creator (and I tell others the same thing; we all are) and the destroyer. We have the capability of changing the intrinsic value of all things. You should be able to agree with me - this is logical. All value and meaning are arbitrary. Labels. What we fancy. It's a game. It keeps us satisfied and moving.

Fuck this shit. I'm now telling myself "no more." But why? What do I do (I continue this thought a few paragraphs down)? This shit has given me bad trips ~25% of the time, but to most people it would be ~75-99% of the time. A lot of my non-sensible, yet highly intense (as they all are) trips have been "good" to me, but I can see how I'm just fooling myself, in a way. I have this choice now, as I always have, to stop or continue, or to do something with my knowledge; with my experiences. This experience was equally as intense as others; it was highly insightful, but just plain negative. I even have a negative after buzz. It is late and probably just fatigue kicking in. I haven't felt the salvia glow since the first few times I tried it. That makes me sad; things will never be the same.

I'm not physically addicted. I've tried it about once a month for the last 1.25 years. I have very little desire to do it, ever, although I am always excited when the topic of salvia, in any form, comes up in conversation. I don't waste my money on it (~$80 since my first experience, and much of it was given to others; I probably could have cut that investment in half had I initially gotten a lower dose). I rarely think about the chemical/tripping, aside from this forum. We talk mostly about plants and other chemicals, and I have no affiliation/history/first hand experience with any of that. The last time I thought about tripping on salvinorin A was... when I was last tripping on it. When the chemical is presented to me in a way that allows me to use it at my discretion (i.e. with my rules), then I snap out of what I'm doing and fiend over it. I'm thinking/saying stuff like, "oh, ok... I'll do it in a few hours, that'll be great." And I set it up just the way I like and I do it in the perfect setting. Regardless of intention, I get fucked. Aside from the traditional shamans, I have probably tripped on it more than anyone in the world. Think about it. This is the internet. Find me someone who has seen it all. The only person I can think of is maybe Brett Chidester, and he went ahead took himself out of the game before we could talk to him about it. I wish his notes were posted online. I bet his mother burned them all.

The stuff I experienced this time brought the system to a screeching halt. I saw the machine as it moved me. I now feel that all of my actions are pre-determined, and logically rationalizing all of this just clouds my mind. I don't even want to think about it. Fate is now very real.

As for my choice, for how to continue on this path... I feel like I should warn people about this chemical in the most real (casual) way. I think people should have the right to "use" it (to be used by it), but should not. I do not think it is a good idea for people to use this chemical by smoking it, because it is just way too intense. "Straight" (square/rigid/conservative/scared/concerned/"normal") people will never be able to understand. Most will never use it again. We know this from the thousands of people who have tried it. None of the people who have tried it with me, even with positive experiences, have tried it again. I doubt they will. It's usually 1) fun and negligible, 2) nothing happens, 3) they forget the experience, or 4) they have an experience like I've had, and can't handle it (it's "bad"). The first one wins with the popular vote, and is why it continues to be abused and why it gains popularity in the underground. A high can be positive, but it can definitely be negative. All things can be negative.

So, as for my choices, I can:
  • Never try it again. Never talk about it. (Edit: the Buddhist middle path. This would definitely be the safest, as in path with the least amount of pain/negativity.)
  • Try it again. Never talk about it. (I would not do this; there's no point; the psychedelic experience is a unification with the universe - all other people are part of that)
  • Try it again. Talk about it. (If I continue on this path, I feel like I am taking on the heat for the good of mankind)
  • Never try it again. Talk about it. (This seems safe, positive, and helpful)

The subjective experience must be hidden to guarantee 100% legitimacy. The thoughts of others can easily mold the shape of what a trip can be. Subconsciously, a trip could be an interpretation of another person's trip. The best thing to try to do, however, is have two people who are isolated and have enough experiences (~5-15 trips) to make something out of it (through their own notes/counseling of a third party non-salvia user) they should finally discuss what they have experienced. If the experiences match up, then perhaps it is "real." I am unsure as to whether or not "archetypal imagery" exists. I think we may not be understanding everything, and perhaps are greatly taking things too far. The only reason I want other people to try this is to figure out if it is all psychosomatic or not. Are we creating our own trips? Am I subconsciously dreaming/forming evolved ideas and imagery over time? Am I poorly connecting each trip, one after the other, to form pseudo-confident ideas of what's going on? I really think this shit is way over our heads.

I just don't know.
Anything that I post is fictional and is purely part of my imagination. Do not attempt any of the activities described above.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby nothim » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:25 am

it will turn in ( transform into) the best in a couple of days , that is when you will reflect upon it , and see how to bend yourself to be a good citizen(to change those troubled ''thought'' in your favor) ;) better than before, ----as soon as you came back alive , i think this is a light motif to be happier than before---''f , i am alive and breathing !'' what does not kill you makes you stronger! 1:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3R4zkblHZk

i have really bad ''trips'' states of being, but that happens if there is no music around!
music helps me balance things, i think, or the ''things'' get balanced with (on) music.

and yes , ofcourse we are all creating our own trips , our life experince is unique and singular, we (are)born and die alone ! what we acumulate(learn) during the time( our own time { boolies 's time is not the same as ulmdy's}) we spend on this beautiful planet will help us in the afterlife or it will create the endless dream of existence ....who knows!?

and , yes we all have intense experinces -but we do not talk about them , otherwise the normal ones will think us crazy !

and yes it is real, ---i , one, leave there what belongs to there - i only focus(grasp) on earthy ideas , but i only listen to them -- i do not follow them blindly, it is just to have a thought of them and that is all,

i do not let it take control over me, that it will happen if i do not allow a brake of at least 3 month

i will go again there , BUT , when i will be ready! I definetly will !

probably nobody believed Brett , that what he has seen was real, he felt rejected, who knows!

we all are different !
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby Ulmdorgr » Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:03 pm

Aha thanks man. Yeah I know how it goes. I am just... always caught up in the moment (which is usually a good/fun thing). I definitely do not have a static mind. I am changing quickly.

Parabola is one of the best songs and videos. Tool is my favorite! I've seen them four times, live. Parabola in particular is... poignant and passionate to say the least. It's funny that you linked to 1:26. Salvia's best quality is indeed that it urges you to live. "You don't know what you have until it's gone." For example, in my notes from this latest trip, the last thing I said was: "It let me feel my heartbeat. It let me feel alive." One thing I've noticed on a lot of my trips is my ability to literally see my heartbeat. All of the songs that I've sung or created while under its influence has been to the beat of my heart. It's in 4/4 time. I heard that we use 60 seconds in a minute because that's how fast our heart's beat...

Watch vicarious if you haven't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUXBCdt5IPg Much of imagery in these videos is stuff I've made come to life in my trips on different chems (perhaps the members Tool and Alex Gray originally saw these things as well). The worms (that come out of the guy's eyes) and barren wasteland are very similar to things I've seen on salvia, the eyes (at 4:45 and near the end for a while) as "closed eye visuals" (CEVs; although I saw them open up on the surfaces of my eyelids, it was definitely not imaginary) on shrooms. From the end of parabola (starting at ~9:45) I've seen the universal lattice (very end when unity is achieved) as CEVs on cannabis. Much of these are also DMT imagery, as painted/redesigned by Alex Gray. I hope this stuff is "real" (as in, authentic to my experience and not residual memories from watching those videos). I would hate to just have my trips be entirely memories strung together in a subconsciously-created chaotic fashion. I've had a lot of fun with all of this, but I really don't know what to make of all of it. I've tried to connect it all, and I know I'm just psyching myself out.

I know what Brett felt. The only reason I started to experiment with chemicals was because I was depressed. I wanted to see if this universe had more, and I came to see that it definitely does. However, perhaps its all a lie. A biological parasitic creation, a chemical messenger, to produce an interest in the chemical? A "poor" attempt at inducing addiction, perhaps. It's a strange thing, but at this point, I am definitely in the mood to be alive. Fuck that salvia reality. It scares me that I could be sucked into that for eternity (for example, what if that's what is waiting for me after death).

The one thing I've noticed is that these chems show me/us many possibilities for existence. My only hope is that either I will exist in the peace of nothingness for eternity, or that I will exist as a transcendent being, exploring all dimensions, areas, and possibilities of existence. The eternal dreamer.

Last words for now: let it be.
Anything that I post is fictional and is purely part of my imagination. Do not attempt any of the activities described above.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby Bigdognick » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:29 pm

I think your decision to stop using salvia is a knee jerk reaction. When you have awhile to fully incorporate the experience I think you might decide to use again. Also whenever I come back from a trip, I always discuss it to keep myself grounded and to insure I don't end up a crackpot who believes all sorts of random shit.

Lastly, a theological question: do you truly believe the things you see on salvia are alternate realities that you may become stuck in? Personally, I think psychedlics show us different views of the existing reality, not completely different dimensions.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby Ulmdorgr » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:12 pm

Well it's a choice, and it's very difficult to handle. If I don't believe, then it's mostly a wasted experience, a visionary memory, like a film. Fairly insignificant.

If I believe, then I usually get to have fun. I am then able to entertain myself with additional mystery, for science has dissolved most of what we have always desired to never know: the unknown. It's very depressing to think that it could all be purely fake - mere "hallucinations."

I've "learned" a lot from psyches, but the primary idea is that all things are uncertain.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby DanG » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:56 pm

I have only read your post Ulmy, i'll read through the others later.

The stuff I experienced this time brought the system to a screeching halt. I saw the machine as it moved me. I now feel that all of my actions are pre-determined, and logically rationalizing all of this just clouds my mind. I don't even want to think about it. Fate is now very real.

I believe what you are experiencing is your ego struggling to live on. But we all know that our ego is one persistent mofo! My suggestion to you is to just ride this experience. I believe the metaphor about this is the ocean. When you fight the waves of the ocean it'll tire you and possibly drown you but when you float on water it is a very relaxing feeling.

reality usually consists of ups and downs. It is just how it is, you just have to take them both and learn from it. Even with a bad experience, you should learn to manipulate it and make it to something beautiful. That's what Nietzsche suggested and i think he's the one who originally quoted "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger".

I think that we are always evolving in some way. We as human being progress over time right? I don't think you are the same person as you were 2 years ago so just accept your now and move forward. Decisions have to be made but don't take them all too seriously. Your choice is maybe final but who knows what could happen in the future? A single thought can change a person significantly what more with years of experiences ahead of you?

All we can really do is react man... there's just far too many variables that one can predict.
I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby DanG » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:02 am

lol i think i should have read the other posts first.
think you'll be fine man!

I've personally battled with depression last year. Tough times... Had very nasty thoughts... way way nasty thoughts. But when i observed my whole ordeal i discovered that it's always a cycle. In my part i am aware that i won't be down all the time, nor be happy all the time. So when i'm down i just gutt it out off me and when i'm all good then i ride it like a pony on a rainbow :D
I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free.
-Nikos Kazantzakis

Use Your Cellphone Camera for Close-up/Macro Photography
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby Ulmdorgr » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:25 am

Fuckin' pony's on a rainbow. Damn. I know what you mean. I have some very, very good visuals to remind myself of the... splendor of being.
Anything that I post is fictional and is purely part of my imagination. Do not attempt any of the activities described above.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby SF » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:52 pm

sorry for this being off subject but cool video i love tool. *Deaf and blind and Dumb And Born To Follow* TOOL
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby Ulmdorgr » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:46 am

It's definitely not off topic. Coincidentally, that has been the focus as of late. As an opioid receptor agonist (an opiate), salvia does have some strange, although minuscule, mystery that has led me to trail off into oblivion far too much in comparison to the typical person. When I am under its effects, I am definitely deaf to the outside world, dumbed down by its effects, and well, I end up following a fading puff of smoke as my thoughts reappear and my memories of its effects evaporate.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby shambhu » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:59 pm

what people usually call "BAD trip" is really an "UNPLEASANT trip" - the difference is huge. from the point of view of spirituality (which SHOULD imo, be the main focus of the psychonaut), any "bad" trip constitues a (HARD) LESSON. some of my "highest" revelations (and there were some) came from meditating on the meaning of "bad" experiences. what i'm trying to say is that these "teachers" are not always treating you "gently", but it's because _that_ is the best way (in "their" oppinion) to show you SOMETHING (what ? - that's for you to figure out).

most "guides" on how to get high forget to mention the most important part of the "trip": the COMEDOWN. imo, one should meditate and dedicate time and energy to UNDERSTANDING what happened, for WEEKS and sometimes for MONTHS after the experience (the content of the lesson is so "dense" that one cannot "decode" everything instantly).

if you "go again" before you learned / understood the content of the PREVIOUS lesson, "the teacher" is most likely to be pissed - "why did you come back before you did your homework? slap, slap !" :P

- think about it - you will most likely remember things you forgot. then stop thinking and do whatever you do; think about it again after a while. and then again and again. this shows your subconscious that you really want to remember.
- try to figure out what it means - the plants don't speak the same "language" as we do, we have to "translate" what they "say", most times it isn't obvious.
- think about the meaning, and think about the meaning of the meaning (what it means that the lesson is THAT and not other). etc, etc
- try to "contact" the teacher ("telepatically") without taking the substance - you now "know" the "way" to go there, but you need to PRACTICE it. don't wait to be "carried" every time - the purpose is to become independent of the physical support (the chemical). try again and again - here like everywhere else, practice makes perfect. remembering stuff means that you're "on your way" and "getting there" (a little). push harder ;)

(feel free to add to the list)

oh, and always when you go, have a "wish" to be granted. don't just go "to enjoy the ride" - go with a PURPOSE (and choose it wisely - don't ask for money or pussy or smth like that, this is an adventure in KNOWLEDGE, remember that).

just my 2 cents.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby DanG » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:25 pm

Before i say anything else, Wonderful post Shambu. Thank you for this

So you suggest meditating on what we experienced during the trips?
And what you mean by contacting them without psychedelics is through meditation as well? <- I'd like for you to expound on this if you may :)
I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free.
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby Ulmdorgr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:52 am

I am very aware of the brutality that potentially awaits me every time. I have had enough bad experiences to keep me away from chems forever, but my confidence in my understanding and recollection of experiences allows me to overcome most fears (like salvia; I always get that knee jerk reaction from an experience, but I will definitely indulge in salvia divinorum again). Some chems I will no longer touch. Experimentation has clarified things, even though I had predicted much of what I attempted to do before I did it.

what you mean by contacting them without psychedelics is through meditation as well?

Conscious flashbacks, per se. The brain adapts to the experience, enabling us to recall memories and increase our sensitivity to the energies we've channeled. You can even re-create visuals consciously through concentration (active control over the body; for example, dilating the eyes is one technique I use to recreate LSD and sometimes low level salvia visuals).

There are also subconscious/uncontrollable flashbacks, but I have yet to fall victim to them (I only know one person that has had a legitimate involuntary flashback but it was of an intense body high; it lasted fairly long too - maybe 15 minutes to an hour).
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby DanG » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:49 am

I've read a chapter in the Black Swan. It's about the Black Swan theory.
Basically what i've gained from this is that there is an importance in subjecting oneself into randomness. I've thought about how vast life is and to just remain stagnant is a waste of opportunity to how much greatness life offers. How many times in history that man said we are already 100% sure about this field and in time are proven wrong?
We can never know everything but we can always try :D

There's so much to learn my friend!!! And me? I am still far too inexperienced to have those flashbacks and visual recreation of trips. All i can say is that right now i don't feel like stopping! Maybe i still have that zestful novelty to keep me going but i'm glad i do. I haven't hit a wall yet so i'll enjoy whatever i can learn :)

Ponies on a rainbow!!!!!
I hope for nothing. I fear nothing. I am free.
-Nikos Kazantzakis

Use Your Cellphone Camera for Close-up/Macro Photography
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Re: Worst trip yet

Postby Ulmdorgr » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:33 pm

Very cool.

Reminds me of Time Wave Zero, by Terence McKenna, and the decrease in "novelty" (unique/important events) in human history.

Experienced psychonauts will their visions while under the influence. They can turn things on or off. It is less possible on things like N-N-DMT and salvinorin A where you no longer have any control.
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