Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby RocketeerJim » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:36 pm

I'll take a Litre (kilo?) then, Ken. When will you be ready to ship? :)
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby ChemistKen » Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:46 pm

hahaha :lol:

seriously...with my knowledge I should extract some...but the startup costs....eh
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby Ulmdorgr » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:15 pm

Thanks for the info, Ken. I was correct on my original assumption. I just got confused when I was writing it up in this thread. And yes, I was disappointed that they immediately killed them, but the point was to study the immediate toxicological effects on their brains.

So, would you agree that the study is flawed because they don't list the mice weight, yet inject them based on their weight?

Also, is my calculation for related dose in humans correct? It was based off of the following, taken from Wikipedia:
1600 μg/kg (0.0016 mg/g) daily injections for 14 days on "Swiss-Webster mice, aged 4–6 months" of unknown weight (when purchasing mice, a estimated maximum mass is 25g). Given that the average weight for males in the United States is 190.9 lbs (according to Wikipedia), or 86,590.7834 g, and that a single gram mixture of plain leaf contains roughly 3 mg/g of Salvinorin A (according to Daniel Siebert). This translates to the mice receiving an effective dose of roughly 6,494,309 times more than a human (human doses range from minimal, 200 μg, to upwards of 24 mg, and body weight for both humans and mice vary tremendously).


So the calculation is 1600μg/kg (median dose) times 0.025kg (maximum weight of a mouse) = 40μg dose. Average U.S. male = 86.5907834 kg, so the related human dose would be 138,545.25344 μg (138.54525344 mg), which is only significant if it is smoked or injected. It looks the Wikipedia's numbers are wrong (if mine are correct).
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby RocketeerJim » Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:29 pm

That is fascinating. Can you carry that forward a bit further and state the actual quantities of X10, X20, X30, X40, etc., etc. for that theoretical 87kg male? Then I'll just add a few percentage points cause I'm a 95kg guy today.

I don't know what my correct dosage is and I'm confused by "use a pile that fits on a penny". Yesterday I used a pile of 60X the approximate SIZE of a penny. TWICE in about an hour. I felt so "close" to breaking through to the other side after the first one that I thought I just needed a booster.

I left my body yesterday. I know that because when I returned to it, it had apparently had a very severe cramp in its left calf -because my left calf was so tight last night I had to walk on the toes of my left foot. I was quite alarmed to "come to" with that! Sort of like . . . . WTF happened to me? But it is better today, which is what convinced me it was a severe cramp.

Also, though I did not have access to a working video camera yesterday I did audio tape both of my trips. My God I make a lot of wierd noises when I'm preparing to leave my body! Very spooky. A couple of times I said "I'm sorry" as if I'd bumped into someone. No recollection of that, the audio tape is actually rather unsettling.

I asked about vibrating vision yesterday. I had a vibrating voice! It is incredible. I've never consciously made sounds like that.
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby Ulmdorgr » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:03 pm

For the amount of mg/g for an X value, you can use my basic calculator at http://chemicalreality.org/salviacalc.php and just follow the instructions (enter a number in one box, then click or tab into the other box) if you want to find the concentration for the stuff you're buying.

The penny technique comes from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty3B2ofxz4E (around 1:24) If you have a scale, you can better learn to eye it by loading a penny, and then putting it on a scale. So the technique is to put a penny on a small piece of paper, then put salvia on top of the penny, then dump it onto the piece of paper and fold that so you easily load your bowl.

Yeah anything you do while you're out may or may not have an affect on your trip or occur because of what you see during your trip. I have such intense analgesia that I now remain still for the duration (sitting or laying). On my 3rd or fourth attempt, I did a few sit ups during the experience (in my case, I was able to connect my experience with what was going on outside of me).

As for the vibrations, yeah my last experience was ridiculous. "Seizure in slow motion" is all I can describe it as. I talked with my friend while it was happening, and they didn't say anything about my voice. I do strange things when I'm under, like chant or "sound demonic."
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby ChemistKen » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:37 pm

Even considering the maximum dose administered is equilavent to almost 140mg for a human seems a little outrageous...but of course 1mg isn't an unrealistic dose when using high extracts... but still seems weird...unless they are using mcg/kg as unconventional units for concentration...but the way they write it in the paper it sounds like they are refering to mcg of sal A per kg of body weight...I'll check the calculations and also the info in the paper as well as how much would need to be smoked to consume that amount and get back to you on that...

But they don't need to tell you the weight of the mice if they tell you the dose per weight of the mice because the concentration in each mouses blood stream would be the same...also they probably ran multiple mice in each group for each dose.
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby RocketeerJim » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:45 pm

I watched the video and it clarified the penny thing for me. Thanks. But then shouldn't the size of the dose be inversely proportional to the X number? I used two penny sized hits of 60X yesterday, separated by about a half an hour. That served me very well. So if I go to 20X I'll need three penny sized hits to get the same effect as one penny sized hit of 60X, ceteris parabus?

Ok, so I entered 60 in the first box and got 150mg/g in the second. What does that tell me? That I'd get the maximum human dose if I smoked a gram of 60x? Well I should hope so!!!!

What does that mean a "normal" dose of 60x should be? I think I'm missing some variables. Or is it, "normal for whom"?

I'm going to guess here that X1, the bare leaf, has 2.5 mg/g. Right? Iunderstand we're speaking mass of active ingredient, not mass of the entire material.
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby Ulmdorgr » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:58 pm

RocketeerJim wrote:I watched the video and it clarified the penny thing for me. Thanks. But then shouldn't the size of the dose be inversely proportional to the X number? I used two penny sized hits of 60X yesterday, separated by about a half an hour. That served me very well. So if I go to 20X I'll need three penny sized hits to get the same effect as one penny sized hit of 60X, ceteris parabus?


Yeah, you have the rough math down. I need to expand the calculator so it shows you the recommended dose.

Ok, so I entered 60 in the first box and got 150mg/g in the second. What does that tell me? That I'd get the maximum human dose if I smoked a gram of 60x? Well I should hope so!!!!


Yes, 1 gram of 60x = 150mg, which is more than the median injection given to mice (which is safe). You could quadruple that dose and you'd be fine. But here's the kicker: you'll black out so fast, so sucking up 150mg or more is probably impossible. I dare you to try consuming more than 20mg in one setting. Penny shots vary widely (like I said, something like 0.03-0.25g), so if you have a scale, please use it.

What does that mean a "normal" dose of 60x should be? I think I'm missing some variables. Or is it, "normal for whom"?


Where did I use the word "normal" ?

I'm going to guess here that X1, the bare leaf, has 2.5 mg/g. Right? Iunderstand we're speaking mass of active ingredient, not mass of the entire material.


Yes, its an average of 2.5mg of Salvinorin A per gram of raw leaf (2.5mg/g). This is why you can buy a kilo of raw leaf for like $20.
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby RocketeerJim » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:48 pm

What does that mean a "normal" dose of 60x should be? I think I'm missing some variables. Or is it, "normal for whom"?


RE: your question: "Where did I use the word 'normal'" ?

You didn't. I used that word to paraphrase the whole penny-size, or "atop a penny" size, dose. However, you did write "recommended dose" and I think we're talking about the same thing there. Your "recommended dose" is what I'm calling my "normal dose".

I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. Sometimes words just get in the way.

To rephrase my question and use your own words, "how much material of a given grade (e.g. X10, X20, etc.) of SD in the bowl is enough to deliver "the recommended dose" of Salvinorin A? In other words, when I'm using the math to determine the quantity I want to put into my pipe bowl, and I'm considering my weight, the grade of SD I'm using, and trying to determine the appropriate quantity I want to use, what is the end number (the appropriate Salvinorin A mg/g equivalent) I should be shooting for? If I'm to establish a baseline quantity that works for me with one grade, such as X20, for example, (lets call that "Q1") so I can quantify when using other grades such as X10 or Xwhatever, it seems I need to know the "recommended dose" of Salvinorin A is.

I suppose the "normal" hit size for me may not be "normal" for the next person and it is a subjective thing and that's why you urge me to use a scale to determine a baseline with any given grade of SD and then use your conversion calculator to determine how much more/less to use with a different grade. Correct? And thus, once I'm more experienced I will be more able to choose how strong a given trip is by adjusting this known baseline figure, which will be expressed in mg/g of pure Salvinorin A in the substance. upward or downward as it suits me.

I think it will be cool to be able to say, "ok, I want a level 2-3 trip (on the Salvia scale) today so I will use such and such amount (a known quantity) of X20, or alternatively, a different but easily calculable and therefor also "known" quantity of X60 to obtain it, but tomorrow I want a level 5-6 trip because I want to pass through to the other side, experience ego death, & etc. so I will use a larger (known) amount of X20 or a different but easily calculable and therefor also "known" quantity of X60 to obtain that effect.

I think you also wrote: "human doses range from minimal, 200 μg, to upwards of 24 mg". Where in this range do you place the
"recommended dose"?
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby Ulmdorgr » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:34 am

Exactly!

If I talk about a recommended dose, it's MY dose. The way I do it.

The penny measurement is mainly for new people, and its great if you're with others who are smoking and no one has a scale.

I think my tolerance is average, but I shouldn't assume that for everyone. So yes, I urge you to watch your concentration/doses. If you have the materials, you can take a fresh gram and split it up equally (by eying it) into separate piles. Then put each pile in its own container (baggies, vials, gel caps, etc.). That's one way to dose it out (10-20 piles, each pile is 1 dose, then just experiment with the number of doses). This is one step above just eying a penny size amount and below measuring the dose with a scale (note: cheap scales suck for dosing salvia).

In the range, Siebert says something like 3mg is a typical powerful experience (this is nothing special for me). So that could be "recommended." For me and you, I'd say something like 10mg. If you can surpass 20-30mg and not black out, let me know and we can adjust the range. Again, when using the word "recommended" we have to pay attention to the experience of the user. For new people, it's hard to say what's good or not. If you give them a little, they will have a good, safe high (I did this to a friend). If you give them a lot, you may scare them. If they are ready for anything, always shoot for the higher doses because that is where we have the most vivid experiences.
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby RocketeerJim » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:10 am

Ok, I think I have it now. So, if I consider 10mg of Salvinorin A to be a fair dose and a starting point for ME to establish a baseline using, for example, X60 which contains 150mg/g of Salvinoren A according to your conversion calculator, I would put 1/15 of a gram into my pipe bowl? And if I use X20 I'd put 1/5 of a gram into the bowl?
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby Ulmdorgr » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:14 pm

Yup, you got it. Dosing between the various concentrations can get very confusing. Putting it down on paper helps.
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Re: Salvinorin A pharmacology and related physiology

Postby RocketeerJim » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:20 pm

That's clear, then. Thanks, Ulm!
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