Kathleen Harrison - World Psychedelic Forum '08

[Ulmdorgr]

Kathleen Harrison describes her experiences with Salvia Divinorum and modern day Mazatec Shamans. Valuable information in these videos include: descriptions of Salvia Divinorum's natural habitat, Mazatec reverence, traditions of shamanic use, and respect for the goddess.

Part 1Part 2
Transcript
Part 1
[0:03; this first part has a lot of gibberish because she is mumbling]
And then there's been much talk lately about Salvia Divinorum, oh for a few years now, but right now, as of about two weeks ago, it's up again as a big topic in the U.S. Um, due to be scheduled, schedule one I hear, um that was rumored a long time ago, and it was rescheduled to be made illegal, the compound, Salvinorin I believe, but um not the plant.

Modern America we have wild teenagers photographing themselves, going crazy and doing really dangerous things after smoking and using salvia in different ways. And then they photograph themselves and put it on YouTube and so everybody can see it. So that's gotten to Washington D.C. and now we're going to have this plant illegal, too.

And so, this is a um, I imagine everyone here has heard of this, but this only grows in the Mazatec region of Mexico, nowhere else in the world, this species, and it ranges from doing nothing, in some peoples' experience, to doing everything, and many people have just plain weird experiences with it, not good, some people have bad experiences, and a lot of weird, that's what you hear most often, but I feel strongly that's because it's not done in the right way, and so I will tell you what I've learned from the Mazatecs who are the only people who have a tradition of using it. The only people on the planet, ever, who have a tradition of using it, as far as we know.

[1:36]
Um, there's the size that it can grow to. That's a dose. In their world, that also happens to be 39 pairs of leaves, which, if you've chewed fresh salvia, which is the way that they do it, that's a lot of leaves to chew. And uh, but no doubt about it is a real experience, and for me it has been a stunningly beautiful experience. Um, so I'm just gonna give you my heartfelt advice really quick, please pass it on, it's uh, she's female. Ojas de la pastora, that's her name there, ska pastora, in Mazatec. Pastora is the shepherdess, or she who watches over, a little different than Mary, um, and uh, a little more on the edge, a little more wild.

And the plant grows in little glades in the woods where it's moist and filtered light, doesn't grow in people's gardens, or they don't grow it in gardens, they grow it off the trail so that people, strangers walking by won't see it, it won't pollute it, keep it clean, keep her clean, always refer to her as 'her.' And I try to do that, too. And she's very shy. She's very powerful, but she's very shy. They compare her to the deer, who'll come to the edge of the glen, the garden, and then if you make a noise or move quickly, or startle, then, and go away.

[3:10]
And um, they also compare themselves to the deer. Um, their people. And uh, and they say that she likes to be cool and moist, the plant likes to be, the goddess in her likes to be cool and moist. So, when I have informed them, I waited years to try and tell them this, but that the plant had made it to the United States and that people were drying the leaves and smoking them, they were just appalled people were drying the leaves 'cuz she wouldn't like that at all. And they were doubly appalled that people were smoking the leaves.

[3:50]
They said that first of all, that won't work, that will just really offend her, she won't show up, whatever you're getting it's not her. And it's really bad Karma, basically, and they don't use the word Karma, but it's the kind of thing that they don't do, is offense to deities, they call that an offense to a deity. And um, that, uh, you have to honor her by letting her grow in a way that she wants to grow, nurturing her, and protecting her, and then when you pick her leaves, saying thank you, putting them on your alter, um, after a few hours on the alter they wilt a little bit and you can roll them up and make kind of like a, it's kind of like a large salad rolled into a cigar, is how I see it.

[4:39]
And you just... In the dark, pitch dark, um, with somebody watching you, they sit, the first time they gave it to me and the second time, they sat very very close to me on either side, all three of us in chairs facing the alter in pitch black, but with their knees almost touching mine, and I thought, "We've done mushrooms together before, you know, they don't always sit this close to me." Um, but later on I understood why.

[5:04]
And um, and that you have to ask as always in any, in any ceremony, ask you know, for your intention. State who you are, and and uh, and ask that she come. And say what it is that you need help with. And then there's this kind of murmuring prayer that you return to, over and over, whatever language, it doesn't matter, uh, over and over, what you're asking for, to keep your eye on the ball, you know, to keep your mind on what it is your there for, you've actually come asking for a gift, asking for help, asking for a favor, and so you're not just there for a good time to see what will happen, you are actually there asking for something. And that's what she can bring to you, if everything else is right. You're not to have had sex for three days before or three days after, um, you are to eat every last bit of it, even after you think that you've had enough, keep on eating it, if he's given you this dose, or this is the dose that you've been given, then, then you eat that all.

End part 1.

Part 2

[Hara]

So nobody should ever smoke salvia?

[nothim]

smoking in general is not good for your health and along with other 'issues'

get a tea made instead

[Hara]

Is this true about freaking out on salvia? she said 10 percent do. Does anyone know enough people to see if this is true? If you know 20 people that have done it about 2 should have freaked out.

Anyone can help?

[SF]

She know what she is talking about trust me. I am totally against smoking Salvia as you could tell from some of my previous post. Smoking Salvia extract comes on to fast and doesn't last long enough. With that being said you can just imagine the confusion and loss of time when using extracts. Extracts are strong dont get me wrong but when extracting plants and this is with all plants, your not going to get all the medicine out of the leaves/foliage.

When Using the quid or other oral method your ingestion the full medicine, your using the medicine the way its been used for thousands of years. I do not believe smoking any type of medicine would be as effective as taking it orally. Smoking it heats up the Salvia killing most a lot of the active side of Salvia Divinorum.

Besides when you take a lot of plant material and extract it into a more pure forum. That is more of a so called drug. To me a drug is not a plant. A plant can be a medicine but not a drug. To me a drug is when you take a whole lot of less active leaves/foliage and considerate that to the fullest potent extract. That is a drug, in other words your getting a lot out of the plant but your also leaving behind medicinal values as well.

The best way to use any type of medicine is the same way its been done for thousands of years. Orally. Im not talking about just Salvia. Any medicinal plant. Smoking is a new thing, smoking plants for high like effects is new. I am not saying we never smoked tobacco or other herbs i am saying most medicinal plants are not smoked and for the very reasons i mentioned above. Heat Kills Medicine. Flame's from lighters can get very hot even hot enough to kill a lot of the potential.


hope i didnt ramble to much.
,sf

[Ulmdorgr]

If you paid attention to the video, the reason you shouldn't smoke it is because you're incinerating the goddess (i.e. it is disrespectful). However, chewing her up is just as destructive. As long as you pay her mind, it's ok.

I don't doubt that the quid is a very different experience, because it brings you more gently to the Shepherdess. SF, the only thing heat will do is destroy the plant material, which isn't necessary for the experience. However, and I know you understand this, the inactive ingredients may have an effect on the trip. No one has ever tried taking pure crystals of Salvinorin A orally, so we can't compare the traditional quid method to extracted chemicals.

I have smoked Salvia over 7 different times so far, and I've helped other people smoke it 7 times as well. As far as freak outs go, I've never seen anyone bolt (if the person is in the trance, and I hope you understand the plateaus of Salvia or this won't make sense, they won't really be able to anyways). I know other people who have watched people freak out, and you can see it on YouTube (I can link you if you wish). However, one person I helped smoke was sitting in a recliner (this was before I figured out a proper setting) and tried to move around, and almost hit their head on the corner of a piano, so I had to help that person. Another person, in the proper setting, was laying down and they tried to stand up while they were in the trance. This person tried to walk to their friends (we had a small crowd watching), but I stopped the person and gently laid them back down.

The bolt factor has to do with a person's personality/mental state. Type A personalities (e.g. alpha male/close minded) are the ones that are most likely to freak out (if they reach a certain type of experience; one that I call "the death trip"). Only one of the 7 people I helped smoke was that type of person, and this person tried it two different times, but neither were negative. The death trip refers to the smoked experience where a person experiences ego death. Within it, the world and your memories completely disappear, and you have nothing to hold on to (there are visuals accompanied with this, but so far I haven't found a similarity between people). The death trip can be either negative or positive, depending on how the person interprets it afterward (for me, it was enlightening; I think it is the most profound experience you can have with Salvia).

Edit
After reading Kathleen Harrison's written experience (see http://www.sagewisdom.org/shepherdess.html ), I realized that the necessary reverence for the plant and the rituals of the Mazatec are vital in understanding the frame of mind and setting you should be in when consuming the plant. How you consume may or may not be relevant.

What I mean is, you have to be focused on having a certain experience, or else all you will end up with is chaos. The Mazatecs amaze me that they've got it down to an art.

[caktalfraktal]

Wow what an amazing woman Interesting, my very first experience with it was quite some time ago, smoked 40x, with a torch lighter. Unfortunately, for this one I had not done previous research into it, and was also not given an accurate description of the experience either! It was not very pleasant... I didn't get up and start moving, but I was deeply terrified because i had instantaniously become a point on a table, view looking up, with some sort of top, like a dradle but not specifically religious, infact it was being spun on me at some sort of fair or carnival, my point of view was looking up inside the spinning top, as if it were spinning on my eye. I could see through the walls of it vaugly, I could make out my friends and what seemed to be a carnival, or some kind of equivilant to a "fun event where everyone's a bit mad", and I called out to my friend Not to have any, infact I yelled at the top of my lungs DONT SMOKE IT DONT SMOKE IT and It was quite loud, top of my lungs panicing type of desperation. I just Didn't want him to enter this space! I think it was because I thought I was unable to return to normal space, I was stuck there, and I wanted him to not have to bare the same fate. Needless to say, once I started to realise that everything was alright, I started to enjoy the experience, and the after effects made me feel clean, fresh and new! I remember writing a journal entry abount it, if I could only find it

My friends did indeed smoke it after me, and they did have a positive experience, while advisadly smoking less

I think that, eating them and smoking the purer extracts are almost different types of psychedelic experiences.. both are useful for certain things. Certainly both methods should be respected as powerful oracular tools, but only when used in the correct environment, complete with intention.

I liken it to darting into another dimention where things are not linear or logical.. an Intention is like a compass, it will steer you and show you the correct things... if you dart in without one, well you'll just receive a series of non linear illogical events, at the will of the salviaspirits (and they like to have fun with n00bs, as most of us have once experienced )