Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

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Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby katsumoto » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:12 pm

One of my best friends who is more experienced with drugs considers it evil and she's disappointed that I'm into it (specifically Salvia, she's ok with most other hallucinogens.) I haven't asked her why she thinks this because she was so flustered when she found out and I just haven't brought it up but I will eventually.

I've done a LOT of research on Shamanism and understand the calling and why hallucinogens are used in practice, but the only people I've found considering Salvia as inherently evil is some people online calling the plant a false prophet who's visions and euphoria are lies, and I trust the field research a lot more than random people online. I know there is a following that feels enlightened by the plant and some even worship it but I really dont feel that its presence, if it is another entity is a superior being. I dunno, I guess I just wanted to hear some of your opinions.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby nothim » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:29 pm

she can be , if you see it that way, ---from my perspective....duality in all things..... and it is a vague evasive and superficial answer .....

:arrow: only God can answer your question!
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby dreamyone » Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:39 pm

its just her hypothesis and opinion (that salvia is evil) ;) Ur opinion can be different, it's your right ;)
and by the way. I would consider people r more evil than any other plant :D They r destroying mother nature, what could be worse?
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby unstable » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:44 pm

I've taken quite an interest in the philosophy of moral values, right and wrong. Ethics are very paradoxical. I'd like to give you at least a couple of things to look at when thinking of what is right and wrong, good and evil or as Socrates would say "pious and impious / god loved or god hated."

One person says something is evil, another says it is good...who is right? Perhaps one person has religion on their side, but which religion is right? Perhaps one person has the law of their country on their side...but laws are different in each country.
Quite the dilemma to say the least!

I believe in ethical subjectivism:
Ethical subjectivism is the belief that all ethical thought and, in particular, judgments about human conduct, are shaped by and in many ways limited to perception. That is to say, the ethical statements humans assert are arbitrary because they do not express immutable truths grasped by the refined power of the intellect. Instead, ethical statements express the feelings, beliefs, preferences, and attitudes of the person(s) or group(s) making those statements.


Being that we are limited to our own perceptions, our own feelings, beliefs, preferences etc. we can only see what is "right" and "wrong" in our own hearts. This is the main moral of Platos "The Trial and Execution of Socrates". In this tale, Socrates is convicted of corrupting the youth, he could easily cop a plea bargain and live out his life but he refuses to bend to the will of the court. They sentence him to death. While he's sitting in his prison cell awaiting execution his friends show up and offer to help him to escape, he chooses not to. Long story short, he was able to die with a clear conscious by facing the executioner rather than becoming a fugitive. In ways it is a brain-twister...it seems that the justice system wrongly accused and convicted him...why choose to die as a subject of that system? But he did. It's really deep stuff but for me it all boils down to what you can carry on your own shoulders.

If your friend feels that salvia is evil, than it is! BUT, only to her.

Here's the real bombshell...There really is no such thing as good or evil...just existence...a beautiful dance of night and day, a balance of life and death. You can put any label on it that you wish, but it does not change what it is.

I hope that this provides some insight...some things to think about.
...She said all energy is only borrowed, and one day you have to give it back.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby katsumoto » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:34 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I understand duality, and how "evil" can depend on perspective , especially if the energy and consciousness in the universe is neither inherently good or evil. I guess I was just really shocked when I got her reaction because she's atheist, and aside from that she's usually pretty understanding and I thought she'd see why I have interest in Salvia Divinorum. I definitely feel a presence when it's in me, but without going too much into my personal life I've experienced much worse, and even with Salvia I don't feel misled from the core beliefs I hold, I feel it has to acknowledge my core beliefs and if it ever contradicts them I will take that sign as a red flag.

Thanks again everyone.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby Ulmdorgr » Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:45 pm

La pastora is my goddess, and her visions helped break down the walls of conventional reality for me.
Anything that I post is fictional and is purely part of my imagination. Do not attempt any of the activities described above.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby katsumoto » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:35 pm

Why is she your goddess? Why is she worthy of worship? why is she a she?

Im not doubting you Im just curious on your perspective and experience.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby Ulmdorgr » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:27 pm

Honestly, I'm just playing around. I have my objective observations and trip reports written down, but I have not had any female forms appear to me (I'm hoping this is because I haven't tried intrabuccal consumption with intentions on meeting her). The goddess is a reminder of the respect that I wish to give the plant (and all plants).

She is a she because I have slowly grown accustomed (I dislike he christianized reference, so I simplify the title to remove Maria's name) to using the mazatec "traditional" reference. Also, I'm currently into hinduism and I choose to worship female forms (shakti, lakshmi, kali, the divine mother, etc.). I tend to stay away from forms that represent stereotypical masculine elements such as strength and size, but alas, kali has been one of my favorites. La pastora is a gardener, tending to us as we tend to her. A symbiotic relationship exists, and I feel pulled towards her depiction by others.

At this point in time I am not inclined to seek a salvia divinorum experience any time soon. I'm on a new path right now...
Anything that I post is fictional and is purely part of my imagination. Do not attempt any of the activities described above.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby katsumoto » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:46 pm

That's great (whatever new walk youre taking) and I liked your explanations and clarifications too. Hinduism is pretty interesting, I dont follow it but my life aligns to certain aspects of it, and Ive read the upanishads and some of the bhagavad gita, really beautiful stories.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby brainstew232 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:38 pm

unstable wrote:I've taken quite an interest in the philosophy of moral values, right and wrong. Ethics are very paradoxical. I'd like to give you at least a couple of things to look at when thinking of what is right and wrong, good and evil or as Socrates would say "pious and impious / god loved or god hated."

One person says something is evil, another says it is good...who is right? Perhaps one person has religion on their side, but which religion is right? Perhaps one person has the law of their country on their side...but laws are different in each country.
Quite the dilemma to say the least!

I believe in ethical subjectivism:
Ethical subjectivism is the belief that all ethical thought and, in particular, judgments about human conduct, are shaped by and in many ways limited to perception. That is to say, the ethical statements humans assert are arbitrary because they do not express immutable truths grasped by the refined power of the intellect. Instead, ethical statements express the feelings, beliefs, preferences, and attitudes of the person(s) or group(s) making those statements.


Being that we are limited to our own perceptions, our own feelings, beliefs, preferences etc. we can only see what is "right" and "wrong" in our own hearts. This is the main moral of Platos "The Trial and Execution of Socrates". In this tale, Socrates is convicted of corrupting the youth, he could easily cop a plea bargain and live out his life but he refuses to bend to the will of the court. They sentence him to death. While he's sitting in his prison cell awaiting execution his friends show up and offer to help him to escape, he chooses not to. Long story short, he was able to die with a clear conscious by facing the executioner rather than becoming a fugitive. In ways it is a brain-twister...it seems that the justice system wrongly accused and convicted him...why choose to die as a subject of that system? But he did. It's really deep stuff but for me it all boils down to what you can carry on your own shoulders.

If your friend feels that salvia is evil, than it is! BUT, only to her.

Here's the real bombshell...There really is no such thing as good or evil...just existence...a beautiful dance of night and day, a balance of life and death. You can put any label on it that you wish, but it does not change what it is.

I hope that this provides some insight...some things to think about.


Dude, you and I think so alike it is almost scary! A christian was trying to convert me (Not that there is anything wrong with Christians, it's just not for me...) and we stumbled into the argument of what was right and what was wrong, and I said pretty much the same thing as you... I'm glad I'm not the only one who came to this conclusion!
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby Ulmdorgr » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:45 am

Limited data, as applied to ethical subjectivism as previously discussed, is also a factor in the development of world views, culture, and logical conclusions. This is why philosophy and any analysis sucks - people argue about enclosed subjects given the bounds of collective reality. Given insight into the beyond, and it slowly expands... Never ending!
Anything that I post is fictional and is purely part of my imagination. Do not attempt any of the activities described above.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby unstable » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:57 am

ulmdorgr,
my father made a good point of truth versus belief. Truth is unarguable...beliefs are a matter of opinion. What is good? What is evil? Does god exist? These are all things that fall under the belief catagory...along with whether philosophy and analysis sucks. :D

I do not share your belief that philosophy and analysis sucks...I believe the philosopher Rene Descartes had one of the most profound insights in "I think, therefore I am." Even if you have not taken a philosophy class or read any of Descartes' meditations on the first philosophy, you have probably heard the quote. Unfortunately it's a very poor interpretation and the meaning is lost. "Cogito Ergo Sum"...I think therefore I am.

Descartes realized that he could not trust his senses to tell him what was real and true, because his senses had decieved him at one time or another. He states in his work, something along the lines of "and when someone deceives you, you cannot ever fully trust them again."

He decided he would have to abandon all else to get to the fundamental truth...So he explored his own mind and realized that through analysis, philosophy that he could prove without a doubt that he existed. His reasoning was...if he did not exist, he would not be able to convince himself that he existed. WHOA!

Now we don't know in what capacity we each exist...and we cannot prove that anyone or anything exists outside of our own mind. When I close my eyes and sit in meditation, I too am able to convince myself that I exist, but I cannot prove that you exist or anybody or anything else exists...only that there is one...me...I AM....GOD (my opinion / belief).

with much love and respect.

-u
...She said all energy is only borrowed, and one day you have to give it back.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby nothim » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:42 am

god dwells in us all, we are along with all living things (plants, trees, animals....) the temple of god....[and only when we die , we are going to be able to confront this phrase whether it is true or not]....some just feel during life due to personal experiences...( alot to talk here , but , i rather not)....

this post will be the ''black sheep'' of the forum, it will put anger between us , it started already...

that question should not be asked on the forum, i said it before , i say it again, f deal with it , do not ask if it is evil, bad, or awesome, or kick ass, if you chose a path , just go on it and do not ask yourself if it is bad or good, you will see, and if it is bad , it is not for you , quit it, there should be risk and sacrifice in what you do, otherwise, just sit at the telly, enjoy your girl, life , go get a pizza, burger king or kfc, and skate .......

no offence to any and the message addressed @none , just some thought in the air
...............
i feel it, lol, this post will be a pain in the ... to many
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby unstable » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:21 am

@boolie..
it will only be offensive to those who hold their own opinions in such high regard as to force them onto others.
...She said all energy is only borrowed, and one day you have to give it back.
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Re: Can Salvia Divinorum be considered "Evil?"

Postby bookworm » Mon May 03, 2010 8:53 am

Questions aren't evil. Ignorance, imo, is evil. Geez, I've been here a day and here I am leaping head first into philosophical debate.

This is a very interesting topic and one that I have been wrestling with a lot lately; I'm pretty much on the same wavelength as unstable. The concept of evil as a thing is really only valid within the context of monotheism and dualistic faiths. Outside of those constructs, there are only shades of grey. Everything is relative, and our moral frameworks are for the most part learned and serve the purposes of our societies. Anything, even the innocuous or innocent, can be used for destructive purposes. I've been working on this theory that for now I'm calling the "matrix of relative experience" which deals with this idea of how one thing can be beneficial in one respect and destructive in another, and how the network shifts and swells in terms of evil vs. good. An obvious example would be the regenerative force of a forest fire; but it's really the more subtle experiences that colour everyday life that make this topic so interesting.

There are lots of theories out there, but one I find very cool is Hartshorne's, where he says that nothing is inherently evil, it's only incompatible relationships which are evil. Meaning, like with the forest fire, fire itself is good, the trees are good, but when they get together it's catastrophic. He was trying to create validity for evil in a Christian sense, but his arguments are interesting even outside that limited perspective.

As for SD, I don't think it's evil (although the reality is I would never use that word anyway). But here's my (likely unpopular) perspective. This is my opinion, which I know a lot of people disagree with, and that's cool. To each his own. I personally think that drug use of any kind for recreational/entertainment purposes is "evil." (again with the word I would never use!) I don't do drugs, and I haven't tried salvia... yet. But, I feel differently about certain natural plants that are traditionally used for healing/religious purposes, when they are used with those intentions. I think that with intense, prolonged spiritual training one can get near to the place these plants take you to, and I think that training is necessary and shouldn't be abandoned in favour of a shortcut. These plants, and SD in particular, can provide a final boost when you've gone as far as you can on your own. For me, I feel like I've gotten to that point and so I feel ready to give it a try. I'm not trying to sound elitist or like I'm discounting what other people do, so please don't take it that way. This is just where I am coming from... We live in an instant gratification society and many of us have forgotten the value of the journey.
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